A Conversation with Jemma Rane - Why Relationships Fall Apart- The Transcript

Kristina Wiltsee: Hi, 

Jemma Rane: Anna. 

Anna Stromquist: Hi, Kristina. 

Kristina Wiltsee: And hi Jemma. Welcome. Welcome today to this spiritual fix. How are you 

Jemma Rane: doing? I'm good. Thank you so much for having me. 

Kristina Wiltsee: Oh, thank you so much for being 

Jemma Rane: here. 

Anna Stromquist: I love that you're here. I'm a big tick talk fan. I love how you manage to fit so much wisdom into a 

Jemma Rane: 60 second clip. Oh, thank you.

Jemma Rane: Yeah, it is kind of jam packed and I'm a talker. So it is, it's kind of a good challenge for me to have, actually have to keep. Yeah. 

Anna Stromquist: And that's actually, how I found out about you was one of your viral tick talks came on and you were talking about the reason why 80% of divorces now are initiated by women.

Anna Stromquist: And then if you're looking at college educated women, it's 90% and you go into the whole dynamic of why women are more. More, I don't know, disgruntled disappointment, disappointed, jaded. I I don't know what the word was you used, but why ultimately the woman is deciding to end it because I think you were talking about the emotional work is in the woman's hands, traditionally in hetero relationships to manage the relationship and that burns.

Jemma Rane: Yeah, exactly. You know, it's something that I didn't know, the specific stats until more recently, but I always knew that I grew up hearing this. My mother and mother-in-law both therapists are partners, actually, I'm in a therapy practice. And so I always heard about how it's usually. The women who initiate divorce and hetero relationships.

Jemma Rane: And so I just thought everybody knew that. And then, you know, as I was hearing about friends getting divorced and clients getting divorce, again, I just assumed everyone knew that. And then I suddenly realized people don't know that stat. We tend to know the stats around how many, you know, first, second, third marriages end in divorce, but we don't know who's initiating it.

Jemma Rane: And I thought well suspicious about that. You know? 

Anna Stromquist: It's just, yeah. Part of me wonders. Well, is it cause okay. Not to be sexist here, but if it, because men are traditionally getting lazier in relationships or is it because maybe we're harder to please? I don't know, because sometimes we're like, I'm in a situation with men and they're just like, totally.

Anna Stromquist: You able to digest the moment. And I don't know if it's my hormones or what, but I'm over here being like, what can I fix? What needs do I knew? And 

Jemma Rane: I don't know. Yeah. I mean, I think those are all really good questions because I think in the same way that you've maybe heard me talk about that we have to stop telling women that they're crazy and women.

Jemma Rane: We participate in that as well. We will say, oh, she's crazy. It's the go-to insult and dismissive criticism when a woman is being expressive with her feelings. And in that same way, I think this idea that we've all kind of internalized about how, oh, you know, it's so hard to make a woman happy.

Jemma Rane: Women are never happy. I think that's related. Patriarchal values and messages as well. And so I really think it's important to move away from that. I think women can actually be really good at cultivating their own happiness. I think it's more about the fact that we've been conditioned supported, encouraged to prioritize meaningful relationships from a very young age.

Jemma Rane: You know, young boys are discouraged from that. They're veered more stirred, more towards independence competence. We are taught to cultivate these intimate relationships with friends, right? And so we learn the skills and so women in long-term relationships because of all these opportunities and encouragement, we're monitoring how close the relationship is.

Jemma Rane: And so we're going to be not always, but more likely to identify when disconnection. Setting in faster, I think it's that Canary 

Anna Stromquist: in the coal mine. 

Jemma Rane: Yeah. And so what I notice is that men who have been given many opportunities to understand emotions and talk about them and it doesn't threaten their masculinity, they will help in identifying when in a partnership they're becoming disconnected.

Jemma Rane: So it's really kind of about opportunities to practice those skills. And that might. Yup. 

Kristina Wiltsee: Yup. Funny side note real quick before I, cause I would love to respond to that is that I was listening to a podcast recently. It was talking about the medical history of the understanding of the uterus. And uh, and it was talking about how up until probably the early 20th century, they thought it was wandering. It was described as an octopus that wandered around the body.

Kristina Wiltsee: And then there was also this comparison and I keep thinking of it, even though it was hilarious, it was like a book in 1840, or it was like in the 1840s or something like this. And it was like a major mainstream doctor. And the way that he described things was he was like, imagining. That you are riding a horse and you're trying to get your P your horse from point a to point.

Kristina Wiltsee: And imagine you have two horses. One horse is very well behaved and it'll just walk from point a to point B and it like mind your directions. And it kind of does everything it needs to. And then the other horse is bucking and kicking you off. And it's trying to go around in circles and it's trying to go this way and that way, and it won't go straight and then it's going over to the left and then it's going to stop eating here and it's going to do this and that.

Kristina Wiltsee: And they're like, You can't help if the female body is this second horse in which your mind is trying to get from point a to point, or, you know, your you're trying to get from point a to point B, but you have this body that's just working against you.

Anna Stromquist: I saw a meme and it was like Freud writing a prescription. And it was between Freud or something and his and a patient., it was actually the husband of the patient. He says something like my wife who has seven children in eight years and has never had an orgasm seems to be going crazy.

Anna Stromquist: Can you please write a representation? 

Kristina Wiltsee: Yeah. Yeah. But to answer, what you were saying I think that. You're absolutely right. In terms of, you know, we're coming into this period in which it's not so much, like I just went to my library and saw a book that was like how to take care and feed your husband for a happy life.

Jemma Rane: And this book is not 

Kristina Wiltsee: that old. I want it to go up to the librarians and be like, seriously. Oh, do you never call for obsolete? But at the same time, I believe that probably in the area I'm at there's probably a lot of people who are still at that place where the, it is a mothering relationship that women are taught to cultivate with their children and their husbands.

Jemma Rane: Yes. Which is so destructive to physical intimacy and yeah, absolutely. And you hear about it all the time. And so even if, you know, so many women are saying, I wish, you know, in heteronormative relationships, I wish that my husband would do. Would express his feelings with me would be more vulnerable with me.

Jemma Rane: So could I get, have a sense of his inner being, and then there are other women who were saying, well, I, I was with a guy like that and I got to tell you, there were times where I was like, could you reign it in a little bit? That's too much emotion. And so it's finding, and so, you know, people talk about the.

Jemma Rane: I think what it's actually about is if you're with a partner who is more in touch with his feelings, but hasn't learned how to self-regulate to manage those feelings on his own. And he's depending too heavily on you to help him navigate those feelings, you are going to feel like his mother, that's what we do for our kids. When you know, when they're young and they're learning how to. To self-regulate. So we need to be able to self-regulate and co-regulate. Yeah, yeah. 

Anna Stromquist: So in a way, one of the best things we can do for the future is teach stuff. To emotionally regulate so that there are future partners, if they're hetero their wives or whoever aren't having to do it 

Jemma Rane: for them.

Jemma Rane: You're right. And for guys, what I noticed is even though I'm seeing a lot of more evolved, aware, younger guy, men who are coming to me in the early thirties. I'm just so impressed. You know, they're saying, I realize that I'm, you know, not as in touch with my emotional landscape, as I could be, maybe not in those words.

Jemma Rane: And I want to, you know, I want to evolve and I want to learn relational skills and they are seeking out and finding the books and the podcast to learn, to figure out what they can do differently. I mean, that is so impressive to me. And yet. Society still calls on them to compartmentalize. They're emotional intelligence.

Jemma Rane: Which is really disturbing. I mean, my son is now 20, but when he was a lot younger you, one time he was talking to me about some struggle. He was going through with friends. And at some point in the conversation I said to him, okay, so when you go to school tomorrow, you know how you want to initiate a conversation with them around this?

Jemma Rane: And he said, and he looked at me like, oh, do I have to explain to this woman. How the world works. It was like, mum, there's no way that I can bring that up with them. It's going to make them so uncomfortable guys. Don't talk about that stuff, right? Yeah. So they have to compartmentalize, right? They can maybe talk with members of their family who have these discussions with their partners, but it's still, they still can't do it with.

Jemma Rane: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. 

Kristina Wiltsee: That's also the patriarchy, right? Which is 

Jemma Rane: yes. So both people, this is the thing, both men and women are suffering because of that. You know, patriarchal pressure, you know, of what it means to be a man. It's I like bell. Kind of description of patriarchal masculinity.

Jemma Rane: I don't really love that. Talk about toxic masculinity, just because I think automatically it's insulting. If somebody started talking about toxic femininity, my guard is up a little bit already. So I like the combination of, you know, patriarchal masculinity and then also feminist Liz Planck's description of mindful masculinity.

Jemma Rane: That's the. I love that because men are being conditioned to not only feel alienated from other people in their lives, their partners, their kids, but also from themselves. So there are suffering, you know, in terms of who brings it up in the relationship, the women are often going to call it out first, but it doesn't mean that the men aren't suffering, they may be just don't have conscious awareness of how they're suffering.

Jemma Rane: Yup. Yup. 

Kristina Wiltsee: Absolutely. It's almost like. The masculine, you know, we, before the episode, we were talking a little bit about the divine masculine, divine, feminine that exists within us. It almost feels as if the divine masculine is suffering from overexposure because of the patriarchy. I know that seems like a strange, tell me 

Jemma Rane: more what you're thinking.

Jemma Rane: Just you know, how, 

Kristina Wiltsee: when something is allowed too much rain and doesn't have that balance, it can kind of grow in a way that is. It kind of overgrows, right? It's like it needs its checks and balance with the other part of it. So that's, you know, and so then you see that interesting thing.

Kristina Wiltsee: I don't know that's me going down a rabbit hole 

Anna Stromquist: in my, like a weed that's not getting pruned or something. Yeah. Kind of like a weed. 

Kristina Wiltsee: That's not getting groups, something like that. I don't know. All of this exists in balance, nature is looking for a balance in all things, and we haven't allowed that balance to happen.

Kristina Wiltsee: So we're seeing it in all the people around us and all of our relations. We're seeking the balance within ourselves, but also trying to look to other people. To create that. And so then you get with one partner and that partner may have an overabundance of one and then you're then compensating on your side and then it becomes this dance.

Jemma Rane: So, yeah. Yeah. Cause so I think when you talk about balance, I often think of balance about relations. Properties right. About a relational mindset. So I get what you're saying. It's true. You know, if it becomes too much about, again, the men are conditioned to, to think that I have to handle everything on their own to be that the value is in their independence.

Jemma Rane: So they're often not thinking in a relational way. Women are conditioned to think in a relational way.

Anna Stromquist: All right. Should I start with one of our questions 

Kristina Wiltsee: and just talk with Jemma forever. I 

Jemma Rane: know many rabbit holes. 

Anna Stromquist: We've been talking in this series about the divine masculine and the divine feminine. So we've already kind of set up the definition of what that means. Divine masculine, meaning, you know, part of us, you know, male or female or non-binary, we might have more masculine energy or more feminine energy in us.

Anna Stromquist: So we're talking more about those roles, like the person. So if we're talking about a hetero relationships in this culture, what do you think are the fundamental differences that men and women have in a relationship that lead to the 

Jemma Rane: communication breakdown? I think it's, yeah, it's a lot about that. That we've been conditioned to think that men and women are so different, you know, are there differences?

Jemma Rane: Yes. However, we're not as different as we've been led to believe. So in that social conditioning, I think what happens is it really limits our sense of self-worth. So men are. You know, given all these messages that they internalize, that their worth is about doing is about being, you know, good providers is about their career success.

Jemma Rane: And so even men who are in touch with their emotions, who are really great connectors, very skilled at that, they will still describe their strengths as related to doing. They don't get that their value is about being, and then for women, we receive all these messages that we. Internalize that our value is about prioritizing the care of others and, you know, and neglecting the care of ourselves.

Jemma Rane: And so we then feel selfish if we prioritize our own care. And there's more awareness around that now, in terms of the importance of caring for yourself, nourishing yourself in order to be able to show up for other people as well, to not get resentful. So I think those internalized, you know, messages from society are not only limiting our self worth.

Jemma Rane: I think they're leading to a lot of problematic patterns within relationships and not, and there's a whole range there, right? That. That because men are discouraged from displaying unpleasant emotions beyond, you know, kind of the primary emotions that sometimes show up before they flipped to frustration and anger and the same with pleasant emotions, right?

Jemma Rane: People are not that comfortable with a guy who's like jumping up and down with joy and exuberance. It's they're okay with women doing that. So for men, their emotional experience gets very near. For both pleasant and unpleasant emotions. And then for women, we're taught to focus on everyone else's emotion.

Jemma Rane: So we're in touch with ours, but then we also have some challenges with. You know, managing our emotions and soothing ourselves and all of that. Yeah. Yeah. 

Kristina Wiltsee: I'm just genuinely convinced that there's probably two huge swaths of generations of even, especially like I'll use my as an. I'm on the cusp of millennial and elder millennial and gen X, but are that just have literally developed no emotional maturity in that way.

Kristina Wiltsee: That ability to self-regulate that ability to do all that. There's just so many people who were just operating that way. Some people don't discover until they have kids, 

Jemma Rane: right? Yeah. Yeah. I agree with you. Yeah. Yeah. And so the there's all kinds of, as we know, all kinds of. Knowing behaviors, avoidant behaviors, you know, trying to avoid the emotions that we don't trust.

Jemma Rane: We can move through. We don't think we can handle them. 

Anna Stromquist: Understanding the problem is part of it. But then I guess healing or transformation is the second part. So if a man is aware of this, okay. A man's listening right now, he's wow. You know, I can see how society has made me have a really small amplitude in my range.

Anna Stromquist: Of what are acceptable emotions? Knowing that? How can someone step into feeling more emotion? It just seems very abstract. Is there a, how to, are there some hacks? 

Jemma Rane: Well, you know, I refer to some of the people who've been researching this and written great books on this, like mark brackets book, permission to feel usually with clients.

Jemma Rane: I use the emotion identification chart. I think it's called the mood meter. That's in his book. He didn't come up with it, but he uses that to, and he in his book helps us understand how to use that. So. The research shows that if we can more specifically identify what we're feeling. So not just, I feel terrible.

Jemma Rane: But specifically, no it's called granulation. What is it? Hopelessness. Discouragement. Fear, embarrassment, you know, what are you feeling? And then, you know, once you can identify it and understand what energy is attached to that, the reason that I love the chart that he uses is there's a correlation between what you're feeling and your energy, right?

Jemma Rane: Like a high energy unpleasant state. You know, anger versus a low energy unpleasant state like hopelessness, and the same for the pleasant emotions. And after the identification is understanding, then I think the process of self-compassion really plays into this. So, Kristin Neff's work on self-compassion, she's a self-compassion researcher and I've done a number of things.

Jemma Rane: Self-compassion, you know, intensives and learned a lot about how effective that is. So really just humans have a tendency to be so self-critical right. So our inner world is not a safe place to be when we aren't even aware that we're being self critical. Even when I listened to people in sessions, ask why questions, they'll say, I mean, why do I did it at a Y.

Jemma Rane: It's under the guise or they're being curious. And it actually sounds to me like more self criticism, right? The 

Anna Stromquist: persecutor and the drama 

Jemma Rane: triangle. Yeah, exactly. Rather than a, you know, so I always say, okay, let's switch those to how or what questions so that you can be kind to yourself. So it's just acknowledging if it's an unpleasant emotion, this is what I'm feeling.

Jemma Rane: Ugh. It's awful to feel that way. And to literally tell yourself and use your own name. I'm sorry, you know, damn, I'm so sorry that you're suffering right now. That's really hard. And then to be able to ask yourself, what do I need to hear right now so that you can then comfort yourself so that you just start gaining more self-trust and the ability to sit through unpleasant emotions.

Jemma Rane: And I also really believe what Bernay brown talks about that. We also have difficulty trusting the pleasant emotions, that when we feel joy, we suddenly get scared that the other shoe's about to drop him. Maybe we can't sit in that joy too long, so it's just not just identification, but comfort with moving through emotions.

Jemma Rane: And then you can start moving on to how do I want to engage with people and activities during the day to play a part and what I want to. So then it moves into kind of the how of happiness, which is Sonja Lyubomirsky, his work because she talks about how, you know, 10% of our happiness is cultivated from circumstantial stuff where we live and you know, where we work and, you know, 40% is genetic, but even that is not a given that all those genes are going to be turned on.

Jemma Rane: And then the other 40% is in our country. It's about how we decide to move through our day, what activities we engage in. So we actually have a decent amount of agency over our fulfillment and to recognize how that's connected to what emotional states we want to feel more of. 

Anna Stromquist: It's fascinating. What's the other 10%.

Jemma Rane: That's a good question.

Anna Stromquist: Is it food? I'm just 

Jemma Rane: kidding. Yeah. Food's a big one for 

Anna Stromquist: Water. 

Jemma Rane: You know what it is? I stated it wrong. It's that 50% is genetic. That's what it is. Yeah. But because of epigenetics, in terms of our environment and our experiences, that's going to affect how those genes are. Yeah, that's 

Anna Stromquist: fascinating.

Anna Stromquist: So that's for ma men or women struggling with emotional breads. And then what about the people who are chronically and pasts, you know, and feel. They're being leached, energetically. That's more of the feminine, you know? 

Jemma Rane: Yeah. Again, because of the messages that were given that's our worth.

Jemma Rane: So when you start recognizing that your worth is not just about how you show up for other people, how you help them, how you know, are taking responsibility for their emotional states. As you start identifying your words in other ways, you'll start pulling away from that a little bit, in terms of being able to set different boundaries, you will have less of a desire to be draining yourself in that way.

Jemma Rane: Because it's important. We're kind of, you know, we're trying to secure our love. 

Anna Stromquist: It's a worthiness thing. Really over-give and over-perform, I think, 

Jemma Rane: you know, if I really show up for someone, if I'm really helpful for them, then how could they possibly ever reject me or a bad. 

Anna Stromquist: So as you become more self loving and self secure, then you can kind of hold your own boundaries.

Anna Stromquist: Cause you're like, well, I don't, if they leave me who cares? I got my back. 

Jemma Rane: Yes. Yep. Yeah. Okay. Definitely. 

Kristina Wiltsee: I was just reflecting cause you know, One of the things that I talk about a lot on the podcast and everything is how I feel more of the masculine expression. And then when I have to go into the mother role, I find it's very difficult for me to switch between the two.

Kristina Wiltsee: And so it's almost like the, within my own compartmentalization, I have a difficulty with doing that. And so what I've tried to do is cultivate. A mixture between them so that my masculine isn't quite so starkly, you know? So it doesn't feel like such a jarring switch between the two, if that makes sense.

Kristina Wiltsee: I dunno. Have you ever come across anybody with a similar 

Jemma Rane: expression? It's interesting. I was actually just thinking. You know, I'm aware that kind of towards the end of, or maybe even throughout my marriage, that I think that my kind of masculine energy got a little elevated. And you know, my ex is a very caring person and yet I think.

Jemma Rane: I think I didn't trust that, you know, because my childhood stuff. And yet I also have a very strong maternal energy. So I was thinking about what you said and I'm like I guess there's different ways that can, I'm a terrible compartmentalizer. I don't know. I wish I was better sometimes. I think in like denial, it can be such a great coping skill and I don't know how to do it.

Jemma Rane: So I just feel everything so intensely good or bad. I'm just kind of interested in what you just said in terms of the compartmentalization of that. Cause I think I was holding both of those things at the same time. 

Kristina Wiltsee: And then it kind of, and how did that like then lead to how did that then affect your relationship?

Kristina Wiltsee: Just if you don't mind or you can take, it 

Jemma Rane: was great. 

Kristina Wiltsee: I was kind of like maybe alluding to that because he is your former. Yeah, 

Jemma Rane: no, I don't think I think my part in it is that , it's that feminine energy in terms of understanding that in part it's about knowing how to receive.

Jemma Rane: And trusting that the other person will give in that way. And so you hear all this talk about, you know, Gary Chapman's love languages and so many men, I can not tell you how many men in sessions will say, well, my love language is acts of service. I don't know that it is. I think that you've been conditioned to think that way.

Jemma Rane: And so you see this a lot in relationships, right? So I could see with my ex very kind man, a talker, I mean, we were really connected for a number of years and he might've said that his love language. Acts of service. We never had that conversation. Because he would out, he would book appointments and he would, you know, all that kind of stuff.

Jemma Rane: In terms of the emotional care, I think I never learned, again, an empath tray, how to really trust it and let myself receive it and let that person give it however they're going to give it. And so I think I would kind of put up some armor of I got it. I can take care of my. You know? Yeah. No, that makes a lot of sense.

Jemma Rane: That makes a lot of sense. So then they don't even know their way in. 

Kristina Wiltsee: And that's the interesting thing. That's what struck me when you said that as I was like, okay, so the divine masculine is, it's an outward thing. It's a doing thing. It's it's moving someplace, it's not a vessel for anything other than the movement. And then the maternal. Is also that outward thing. So where is the vessel? Where's the receptive vessel in either of those, you know, 

Jemma Rane: there you go. Good. Thank you for making that connection from, 

Kristina Wiltsee: and it struck me. I was like, I was reflecting on your story and be like, oh yeah, I don't have a receptive vessel.

Kristina Wiltsee: Where is that? 

Jemma Rane: I love that. That's exactly it. So that's one of the things that I love about. The interim period in between relationships, that I'm in right now is it gives you that opportunity to reflect on all that and learn how to receive and learn how to give to yourself. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. 

Anna Stromquist: Nice. One of the things you talk about in your viral tick talk, the one that hit like 5 million was you're talking about how many men nowadays, when their wife comes or many husbands, I should say nowadays when their wife comes to them saying, I'm ready for a divorce, I want a divorce.

Anna Stromquist: They say, and you put it, you know, you quote that they've been blindsided, even though that the wife has been mentioning all along how unhappy she is in the relationship. Could you talk a 

Jemma Rane: little bit more about. I think that's one of the biggest aspects of this problematic pattern, right?

Jemma Rane: So every relationship is unique and has all kinds of different patterns. And some of them are great and foster growth and some of them are inhibit growth and connection. Is such a prevalent pattern in terms of when women and women, you know, they will go for years bringing up with their partners. I F you know, in whatever way that they're describing it, I describe it as disconnection.

Jemma Rane: So I think we've also been led to believe. And focus that, you know, led to believe that the problem is about, you know, a lack of effective communication. And so everyone uses that language and we all talk about how can we communicate it in a more effective, impactful way. I don't actually think that's the issue.

Jemma Rane: So I think we haven't been identifying the problem accurately. I think it's about a crisis of connection in the relationship and an effective communication is one of the foundational tools to help us reconnect. So every relationship is going to have phases of disconnection of rupture, and it's learning how to learning the skills in order to reconnect.

Jemma Rane: And so in this, the part of the pattern that you mentioned. Women will go to their partners multiple times to say, something's up. This doesn't feel good. You know, and sometimes they're not doing it in the best way. Sometimes it's coming out as blaming and criticism. And, but a lot of the time they're being quite sensitive about how they don't want to hurt their partner's feelings.

Jemma Rane: They don't want to come across as insensitive women will say to me, I'm worried I'm going to cry and then that's going to be upsetting to him. I was told after my split with my ex that he couldn't really hear me because I didn't cry because I was talking to him in this tone of voice. So I like, we can't really win, you know?

Jemma Rane: And so they're either directly dismissed again with this very misogynistic message of you're crazy. This is a very competent where man, and they don't even think they're being unkind half the time when they say that you're crazy. You know what you're talking about? This is just a phase you're blowing things out of proportion, you know, really direct dismissal or it'll be more indirect.

Jemma Rane: Like it was with my ex we're in the moment he was very compassionate, you know, it was like, To hear that you're feeling this way, that you feel alone in the relationship, but you feel abandoned. I hate this. And then, you know, the very next day just kind of went on about his business as if we never had it.

Jemma Rane: And I think in fairness, sometimes there's no action taken no revisiting of the woman's lack of satisfaction because he doesn't know what to do. And because men are sensitive to feelings of inadequacy. If they don't know what to do, they may really avoid the situation altogether. But the way that it feels to the woman as a law is as a lack of care.

Anna Stromquist: So it doesn't like resolved. I feel like, okay And put the analogy is if you only have two choices, like you only know how to do one or two things, I can't think of a great analogy, but like you only know how to hit the pool ball and that hole or that home, but there's six other holes.

Anna Stromquist: And I feel like, you know, the men are taught to only hit it in this one hole. They can't comprehend or navigate the possibility of other holes. It's like something structurally in the brain needs to change to even open up to the idea that there are other ways. If your husband had said to, you will just give me the list, just tell me what I need to do.

Anna Stromquist: I'll do it. That was, that's not the thing because you're then, you know, getting them a map to the pool table holes, right? So it has to come from within, it has to be a transformation from within, I think on the partner's behalf for anything to actually shift. It has to be transformational because otherwise they're just going through the motions, but they're still just putting that same ball in that same 

Jemma Rane: hole.

Jemma Rane: If that makes sense. No, it does. Absolutely. Personal and relational transformation. It's both. So people get so focused on, you know, the relationship and they each have to transform personally, cause they're both playing a part in the pattern. And so what you're talking about, I love that you said in terms of something in the brain needs to shift, because I'm really into interpersonal neurobiology and you're right.

Jemma Rane: So I think they're feeling a state of. In that moment, right there, threat response has kicked in. And so they're either going to. I mean, some men will get really, you know, verbally dismissive and kind of power over, you know, dynamic with the women or others will just, you know, avoid it. Some will get panicky that she, you know, when a woman gets to a point where she's already said it a number of times, and she's saying it in a different way.

Jemma Rane: And she's saying, I don't think I can do this anymore. Then sometimes, often the men get really scared. And so they're still in a threat response, but they slide right into all change. And so in terms of what you're saying with something needs to shift in the brain, it's a. Th both people have to identify that there's a problem.

Jemma Rane: And that once they've identified that there's a problem, both people have to take responsibility for the repair and the growth and the nourishing of the relationship. As long as that still remains, you know, on the woman it's, these patterns are not going to change. 

Anna Stromquist: It's you can only shoot it in that one hole.

Anna Stromquist: What do you think about, well, meditation is one form of transformation. What do you think about microdosing? There's a new series out on Hulu called nine. Perfect strangers. And how could your son about the neurobiology and how micro-dosing on? I'm gonna say it wrong. what does it clearly, I don't know what I'm talking about.

Anna Stromquist: So Simon and LSD can cause changes in the brain that people can actually transform quicker than they would say in meditation. I don't know. That's just a random topic maybe to bring up, but how do you see it in any research where you are about. 

Jemma Rane: Yeah. I mean, I'm always kind of open to learn more about, you know, current practices and at the same time, it's like this whole thing about like hacks life hacks fears.

Jemma Rane: I'm not really a big fan. Of that idea of bypassing spiritual bypasses, those kinds of invest in the group. I'm not saying don't, if you want to try it, go for it. I mean, I know a lot of people, not a lot, some people who have tried Iowasca and I, and I listened to the stories of it and I'm like, you're trying to.

Jemma Rane: Most of the people that I know. And they will even though they may be enjoyed the experiences, they will get to a point where it's like what they gained from the Iowasca experience. They didn't then integrate. In a transformational way and they're less on light. It just feels a little bit like bypassing the psychological growth to be trying to take a shortcut.

Jemma Rane: Yeah. 

Kristina Wiltsee: Okay. Can I ask you a question about release relational versus personal? Because I've had a lot of conversations with women, whether they're friends or clients, and it's interesting. Cause I feel like. People when they're going through massive personal growth, it 

Jemma Rane: feels 

Kristina Wiltsee: like the natural conclusion to kind of blow up the relational experience.

Kristina Wiltsee: Like I've outgrown this or I've, you know, something along that can you just speak to that? Cause, cause sometimes I feel like it is. To, you know, for me even doing this podcast, like going through all the personal growth, sometimes the relationship kind of has to grow along the same lines. Otherwise 

Jemma Rane: you can leave it behind, right? Okay. Not just your romantic relationship, but your friendships, your relationship with family members, what you see as you step into your worth and grow more. You don't want to invest as much time and energy and your heart into relationships that are not reflecting that back to you.

Jemma Rane: And it's really painful. It's really painful because it means, you know, in your romantic relationship, you recognize more and more. That you're not fulfilled. So I, you know, I've talked about that. The process, which happens often over years with women leaving their long-term relationships is that they slide in and out of clarity and self deception because they don't want to leave.

Jemma Rane: So they have clarity. What you're saying, I've outgrown this as they've been investing in their own personal growth. So they'll feel another one of the patterns they'll feel unfulfilled for quite some time. They will then start investing in their personal growth. And if their partner isn't doing this.

Jemma Rane: They're going to go in different directions, right? There's they start to speak a different language. They have different, you know, awareness, different relational skills, different, you know, personal growth skills. So yeah, that, that does happen a lot. You know, that's why both people, I think for life, I wish people could understand this, that for life it's beneficial to invest in our personal growth and release.

Jemma Rane: Intelligence and growth. Yeah. 

Kristina Wiltsee: No, that's it. That's a really good point. Cause you re I mean, it is a, it's a careful balance. It really is. 

Jemma Rane: Yeah. Yeah. So you'll see women in a lot, you know, some of the women that I'm working with, they will be in so much pain cause they're trying to motivate their partner to invest in his own growth.

Jemma Rane: And they're trying, and they're so discouraged and you can't. It's gotta be, it's gotta come from his own intrinsic motivation. And maybe 

Kristina Wiltsee: that, like you were saying, like that moment, when you say it in a different way and maybe their reptilian brain turns on or they're like, oh God 

Jemma Rane: yes, absolutely 

Anna Stromquist: fascinates me sometimes when you just gave an analogy and they're like, oh, now I got it.

Anna Stromquist: I've been saying that for 12 years or five years or whatever, but when I gave it a now, you know, it's fast. Yeah, 

Jemma Rane: you're right. Sometimes it's a different way of understanding this. I think the other thing that's kind of woven into this whole pattern that. People don't like to talk about, but that, you know, if you've been raised in a patriarchy, entitlement is part of it.

Jemma Rane: And both women and men kind of collude in that. So, and the evidence of that is once she decides I can't do this anymore, I've been saying this over and over again. And I have to leave the angry. The anger now, of course, some anger. When you feel betrayed, when you feel abandoned at the same time, there's a lot of anger around, you know, how dare you leave me.

Jemma Rane: Entitlement really kicks in. And so I do think that's playing a part and again, it's not to vilify men. They've been, you know, like Steve. In patriarchal messages, right around male privilege. So when a woman is saying, I'm not happy, I think entitlement is also playing into that in terms of them, you know, not really getting that.

Jemma Rane: She might leave if it doesn't change. Yeah. Yeah. Because, so go ahead. Go ahead, Chris. Did you want to, 

Kristina Wiltsee: I didn't nothing. 

Jemma Rane: So.

Anna Stromquist: Here's a question. When do you know that the relationship is beyond repair, that you have done all your internal transformation or your partner has? And you're just, I guess, I guess the question is when do you know you're not happy enough? Or when do you know the relationship is over? 

Jemma Rane: You just, it's so different for each person.

Jemma Rane: However, there is, there's often some final moment. Like I call it kind of the straw that broke the camel's back moment and it could be something really little that doesn't even register for your partner. And, you know, the woman goes, oh, I see what's going on here. I can't do this any. She sees things through a different lens.

Jemma Rane: So as in that process of clarity of vacillating, between clarity and self-deception, she still is kind of building up for clarity. It just gets masked. And then she gets to a point where she just kind of new. It's a long process of growth for her and it's and some people will be in that for years and others it's, you know, you know, some people, it may be 10 years for somewhat, maybe two or three.

Jemma Rane: But you just do get to a place of internet. Where you're like, I don't want to invest in this anymore. Yeah. It's like you almost 

Kristina Wiltsee: stay in clarity or the difference between self-deception and clarity. There's no, there's very little difference between them. So the vacillation doesn't, they're all on the other side of I'm going to 

Jemma Rane: leave you.

Jemma Rane: Yeah. And then we, and it's so hard. It is so terrifying to come forward and say that. And then once it's out of your mouth, you're thinking. My goodness. Did I really just say that I'm not going to stick with that? And then what you recognize is this, so many women described this and I went through this feeling of levity.

Jemma Rane: And so it's really confusing to your partner because it looks like you're just suddenly skipping down the street when you're a bit, and you're still in pain, but you're telling your truth and you're not deceiving yourself anymore. So you do feel lighter and you also, it also validates even more. This is the right decision for.

Jemma Rane: Yeah. Yeah, no, 

Kristina Wiltsee: that's good. Thank you, , 

Anna Stromquist: So another question I have could be, what can a conscious masculine conscious man do to prevent the marriage from dying? Or can, I guess he can only work on himself.

Anna Stromquist: Maybe I'm answering my own question. He can really only focus on himself or are there things a man can do? To prevent the death of a relationship. And then I'll ask the same question for women. 

Jemma Rane: Yeah, I think it's, I think it's both, I think it's investing in his personal transformation and in the relational transformation and it would be great if from, you know, earlier on in the relationship, both people decide to invest in the growth and the nourishment of the relationship.

Jemma Rane: So that they can then navigate. You know, S you know, some of the ruptures together so that it's not on the woman to monitor how close they are and then what to do about it, and then how much progress they're making and then motivate partner to invest, you know, all of that. And men with higher emotional intelligence who have grown up around people talking about, you know, aspects of relational intelligence, they just kind of jump into, do this more naturally.

Jemma Rane: Yeah, 

Kristina Wiltsee: it's interesting. I saw a so much of our influences from social media oh, I heard this. I don't know if it's true or not, but I'm going to tell you this story anyway, because maybe we just have a zillion, archetypal stories now, as opposed to just 12, you know, in this day it was a, it was just a story about a couple who.

Kristina Wiltsee: They were both in really bad spots, but they were together and they were just like, we're going to go away for two years. And it just, I don't know if they had planned it for two years and then as they came back, they had done their work. But in that case they had to separate. Yeah. They had to separately the plan to get back together.

Kristina Wiltsee: But it was what was necessary for them to do the work they needed to do for the personal work, so that then they could come back together as well as in the healthy relationship and then concentrate on the relational work. 

Jemma Rane: Yeah, because it is so difficult to shift. Patterns like these, you know, these reinforcing feedback loops in relationships, right?

Jemma Rane: That each person is playing a part in and the more one person aid does something, it affects person B in this way, the person B does something that affects person. I even more in that way. And it's really tricky to shift them when they've been going on for decades. Yeah, no, 

Kristina Wiltsee: that's that's, it's an interesting, it's just an interesting prospect for me to think about it in terms of, cause I think of community and then personal work, like I think of the inner work and the outer work, but in this way, I don't know if you've given me a really good perspective on 

Jemma Rane: that.

Jemma Rane: Thank you both. Yeah. Like we really need both. Yeah, we absolutely do. They absolutely do. 

Anna Stromquist: I think the number one. Trait to look for in a partner. If someone listening is single is finding a partner who's willing to self-reflect because self-reflection is really where transformation begins. It begins with first being able to eat and look at your shit.

Anna Stromquist: So because the body can change, we're all going to age. So many other things change, but the ability to self-reflect, I feel like by the time you're an adult and you're dating, you can either can, or 

Jemma Rane: you can't. So 

Anna Stromquist: that would be my number one. Trait to look for. What would you say are the best traits to be looking for in a partner to anyone listening who is single, 

Jemma Rane: you know, again, because I think kind of relationally, I think in terms of paying attention to.

Jemma Rane: So the interplay between the two of you. So I agree with you that self-reflection and awareness and a growth mindset and all that is really important. And at the same time, it's the interplay between the two people, you know, that we have, I think, , for both people to have spent some time gaining an awareness of what they.

Jemma Rane: Wounds are from childhood to understand, what is triggering to them and to know how to take care of themselves through those triggers, to know what their reactive patterns are. I mean, that is just such a, that is playing out in every relationship. And it's so interesting to me that you will talk to people who've been together for years.

Jemma Rane: And when I asked them that question, right in couples coaching, and they look at each other and they don't know what each other's triggers are, they don't know what their own are. They may have some awareness around stuff that happened to them in childhood, but they haven't connected it to their relational pattern.

Jemma Rane: So in terms of must haves for a person, I think it's, so I think it's also very personal based on what your, the intersectionality of everything, what your experiences have been, what would feel really painful for you and what would feel good for you? I mean, I think of in terms of what's growth, fostering, what, what adds to yourself.

Jemma Rane: You know, and an interplay with someone else that is additive to your self-worth and your fulfillment paying attention to how you feel when you're with this person.

Jemma Rane: Yeah. I love that. Thank you. That makes a lot of sense. 

Kristina Wiltsee: I have two questions. Can you tell us about your coaching about your life coaching business and kind of what you offer for that so that we can let people know if they're interested and also just because I'm curious.

Jemma Rane: So I take an approach from a desire to shift the. Paradigm which currently exists, which is that growth is linear. I think that's problematic. I think it leads people to be self-critical it's based on. Childhood development, right? The way that children develop, because the way their brain is developing.

Jemma Rane: And I think that growth is more fluid and associative. And so I in thinking about that, I got really fascinated by the structural integrity of a web of the orb web, because of what came to. That's what I think growth is about. And so the more research I did on that, the more I really understood that like a web is a damage tolerance system that, you know, the spider thinks that the damage is localized and she doesn't just let that.

Jemma Rane: She scurries over and she repairs it. And each strand in the web is made it's made of a different type of material. So that adds to the structural 

Anna Stromquist: integrity bills. Because just yesterday I had a vision of a spider web. You did being the analogy of how we relate to people. Oh, I'm 

Jemma Rane: so happy.

Jemma Rane: You said that. Cause sometimes I think people are like, what? 

Anna Stromquist: No. Cause, cause we're I was thinking how we're all attached to people in so many different ways and they can pull on different strings and we can pull on others and how we're all attached. And if you have beef with one person over here, it's not isolated.

Anna Stromquist: Everyone on the web is affected 

Jemma Rane: by that dynamic. I agree. So I call it my web of wellbeing and so for me, you know, I'm also very intuitive. So when I'm working with people, I'm going to focus on what they're bringing up in that session. But overall, in terms of the different components of that web, you know, there are the anchoring threads, which I really think is your relation.

Jemma Rane: To yourself. So just as an example, expanding yourself worth you know, the skills of secure attachment with yourself. Self-compassion, self-regulation, you know, self-directed neuroplasticity, right? All of that to improve the relationship with yourself and then to identify your core values and understand if you are.

Jemma Rane: In alignment with them where they're maybe being compromised. And then the interesting thing, the other thing I love about a web is that what adds to the strength of it is actually that it has a second frame in it. And without that frame, it wouldn't be able to withstand Gale force winds and all of that.

Jemma Rane: It appears quite Great quite fragile, but it's not, it's so strong. And so exactly, and it's flexibility that also adds to its strength. And so when we get very rigid, We get very narrow minded, right? We move away from innovation, creativity growth. And so we also want to be flexible in the way that we respond.

Jemma Rane: And in terms of that second frame, I really think of that as our interactions with other people as our relational intelligence. And then also work with people on identifying their strengths and really understand for most people. I find that some of the things that their strengths that they're leading with, or actually different, or actually, you know, adaptive strategies to trauma.

Jemma Rane: And so then that means that we in leading with those strengths, it's not actually as fulfilling to. And then some of the strengths that they had as young children were shut down were pulled it. They weren't as valuable. So some of that work, and then all the, you know, behaviors and practices that kind of connect all of this.

Jemma Rane: So that. People move towards a greater sense of wellbeing and understanding of what their inner resources are and that they can tap into those inner resources at any point in time, you know, and yes, an assessment and an expansion of external resources and the interplay between the two. But I find that people tend to neglect the inner resources that are always there.

Jemma Rane: They don't even know what they are. Yeah, right? Yeah. 

Kristina Wiltsee: Yeah. The other question is I'm just so called to ask about what the lion on your website represents. 

Jemma Rane: Oh, if you could see there's lions all around. 

Kristina Wiltsee: Yeah. I was just like calling to me. I was like, I gotta ask you these questions. 

Jemma Rane: Oh, I love no one's ever asked me that I have been drawn to lion since.

Jemma Rane: Like a toddler. , my dream as a young kid was just get me to Africa to see lions. And when I got there, I just started like sobbing, you know, it, it just felt so such a connection to Africa and lions to me represent courage. They represent a great balance of autonomy and interdependence, those female ones. You can go and hunt and provide for their pride. And then I also love hanging out and the value of rest and play and this kind of balance of, , being kind of fierce when you need to, and then also chilling out in the shade and, you know, and playing and being affectionate.

Jemma Rane: And I'm just, I'm crazy for lions and also in coaching it's that the more courageous people feel, the more that they will take. Thoughtful risks for themselves to grow. 

Kristina Wiltsee: Yeah, no, that's really that's wonderful. Thank you. For those of you who would like to see this line and would also like to see what Jemma has to offer her website is J E M M a. R a N E coaching.com and that's 

Jemma Rane: all 

Anna Stromquist: the rain coaching.com. So I just added a quick question, because you talked about your philosophy and the web, but when people work with you, is it do you give, I'm just curious how it works.

Anna Stromquist: You give them homework, you give them meditations. You chat, like what kind of, what does it kind of 

Jemma Rane: look like? Yeah, it's a combination of what they're bringing to me in session based on, you know, what's happened for them in the last week and the integration of the insight that they. Gain in session with how they then put that into play, you know, with assessing situations in a different way with self-reflection with pushing themselves out of their comfort zone to respond to other people in different ways.

Jemma Rane: And so, yeah, there's, it's a combination of, I do give homework that is sometimes it's re. Exercises to pull out more insight from them and also just practical exercises in terms of action steps to connect with the insight. Okay. 

Anna Stromquist: Awesome. This has been a great conversation. This is one of my favorite interviews.

Anna Stromquist: Thank you. It's 

Jemma Rane: been very fun. Both of you. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Thank you so 

Kristina Wiltsee: much Jemma for your time. We really appreciate that. And all of your insight today. 

Jemma Rane: Thank you. I love how collaborative this. 

Anna Stromquist: Yes. Thank you.